Marriages are malnourished. Learn 5 Essential Emotional Nutrients for a Healthy Relationship
Marriages are malnourished. Learn 5 Essential Emotional Nutrients for a Healthy Relationship.
Author Nancy Perpall joins me to tell us more about her latest book "The Malnourished Marriage". She is a former critical care nurse who used conflict resolution to get her patients the best care. As a practicing divorce attorney for the last 30 years, she’s used conflict resolution to get her clients the best results.
For more information and to read her blog, you can find Nancy online @ nancyperpall.com
Find her books here: nancyperpall.com/books
Instagram: nancyperpallauthor
Facebook: nancyperpallauthor
LinkedIn: Nancy Perpall
Watch the video of this interview on our YouTube channel
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Nancy Perpall 0:00
Hi, my name is Nancy Perpall, and I'm thrilled to be a part of today's podcast on Divorce Magazine Canada.
Deena Kordt 0:07
Hey, are you or someone you care about considering dealing with, or been through a divorce or separation? Well, you're in the right place. You don't have to do this alone. There are people who care and want to help.
Hi, I'm Deena Kordt, and author, blogger, publisher, and empowerment coach. Thanks for joining me on the Divorce Magazine Canada podcast. You are going to hear from our team of experts and professionals how to navigate this difficult transition in your life easier, more efficiently, and with better outcomes. Did you know we host online divorce resource groups that are free to attend and everyone is welcome? Check out the links in our show notes. And be sure and join us. We love bringing experts to you please refer to our terms of service available on our website, divorce magazine canada.com. And stay tuned at the end for the legal language. Ready. Here we go.
I have a fascinating person to introduce you to today. Nancy Popol is an author. And she was a former critical care nurse who used conflict resolution to get her patients the best care. And then as a practicing divorce attorney for the last 30 years, she has used conflict resolution to get her clients the best results. And she's written some books. Her latest book is what we will be talking about today as well the male nourished marriage five essential emotional nutrients for a healthy relationship. We're even going to be talking about the three F's of intimacy, and the best ways to recover after a divorce. We're covering so many fascinating topics Not to mention, she's a super interesting lady. Let's meet her now.
Hi, Nancy, I am so excited to introduce you to my audience. And it's exciting because you're you're coming from somewhere in the United States, which you will share with us in a moment. Now you have an extensive background that fascinated me and you have so much value to offer to the audience, with what you have done, what you've accomplished, and how you support and encourage and educate people. Welcome to the show. Please tell us about yourself where you're coming to us from and start to introduce what it is that your heart has called you to do and why?
Nancy Perpall 2:44
Well, I am thrilled to be here and I appreciate the invitation. Um, I started my career as a critical care nurse. I graduated in 1965, when a time when the choices for a woman were to be a teacher or a nurse. I want to be a doctor but because there's seven kids in my family and my my father had boys to educate he didn't want to waste the money on a girl, quote unquote.
In any event, most of people my age, you know, will attest to the fact that that's just how it was. And that decision was just accepted and unchallenged. Thank God it has changed.
I wrote a textbook. I became a lawyer because here's the story. I wrote a textbook in nursing advanced concepts and Clinical Nursing by JB Lippincott. It was widely distributed, it was made a mandatory text in many nursing schools. Many of the hospitals throughout the United States adopted the protocols that we introduced chapter by chapter. I was working in the emergency room and Allentown, Pennsylvania at the time, although I live in Sarasota, Florida now. And I went to the administration and I gave them the Book and I gave them many of the responses we were getting, which you know, included adopting these protocols in hospitals. And I was told that in this hospital, only doctors make the protocols. They don't come from nurses. So I went to someone who had been a new hire in the hospital. She happened to have been a nurse but became a lawyer. And they actually were bringing her in to look at the departments and to try to improve the patient protocols which I was offering. In any event, I asked her how I would get them to listen to me and she said go to law school. So I went to law school. And I came out of law school, I clerked for a judge for a year and then I was hired by a malpractice defense firm, which I thought was would be a very good way for me to educate myself and go back in
to administration. But once again, I was faced with life's challenges as a female and an all male firm.
My first day I was, as I said, hired to do medical malpractice. There were 75 files on my desk that were divorced files. I went to the managing partner and I said, you know, I was hired to do malpractice, defense, I have no interest in doing divorce. And he leaned across this very large mahogany desk and said, put his finger an inch from my nose, mind you, and said, You are not going to make it here, you do what we tell you to do. And by the way, divorce is women's work. So
I did the malpractice, and I actually developed quite a divorce clientele. When the firm lost the contract to represent the physicians, I took the 125 files I had accumulated. Of course, with their consent, they came to me, and I opened my own law firm, and I had my own firm for about 30 years. So that's my long, drawn out way to say we are women, we can do it. When you tell us we can't. That's when we dig in and we do it even better. Oh, now see, you have blazed a trail definitely in more ways than one. I am. I'm just, I hold you in very high respect for what you're doing. I really admire that. And I think for many of us, we don't understand what had to be done by the women who have opened these opportunities for us. It you know, first you faced wanting to be a doctor, you did get into the medical field in the way that was more available to you and accepted, I guess socially accepted in some ways. And then you met resistance there, even with great accomplishments, I mean, writing a textbook that is phenomenal, and how how valid and pertinent it was for what was needed at that time. And that was openly acknowledged. And yet because of who you were presenting it, it wasn't accepted. Now you find Okay, I'll be more effective if I am a lawyer, and I'm coming from a background in law. Okay, great, great in theory, but in reality, that that wasn't the case. And you stuck with it. And I really respect that. I think it's, that's, it's tough. That's tough. It was a tough time. But you know, you have to look at the time, you know, we a woman couldn't get a credit card. Unless a man signed cosign for her. She couldn't buy a car, she couldn't rent an apartment, she certainly couldn't take out a bank loan without a male co signing for her. So those were the days I mean, you know, I don't want to talk about when going in reverse in the United States with the recent decision, regardless of whether you're pro or con, you know, they're taking away rights in this country.
And people my age particularly are bridled at that, because we fought so hard for women's rights. And one thing, I'm so pleased that you're helping people go through divorce. That's what I spent 30 years on, I tried to take a holistic approach. I didn't just talk to them about the law. I talked to them about the physical impact, that heartbreaking
piece of your body that you go through, when you go through a divorce, no matter how you slice it, no matter whether you expected it or didn't. Divorce is pain. And pain triggers the body in so many ways.
It rises the cortisol level, you know, it does one or two thing people either either over eat, they under eat, they get depressed. They project. I mean, there are physiological reasons, particularly women. And if you're a menopausal woman, and you're being dumped by the person you thought was your soulmate, but then they come to you and say, Well, I actually found my soulmate, Nanette and accounting and that's the end of your marriage. Can you imagine how devastating that is? You're going through hormonal changes, and then you're going through the biggest rejection of your life. And I think it's it's so important for women to understand that what they feel is normal. It's a normal part of our body's response to the trauma to the stress
us into the feeling of being detached from our identity. And many women my age particularly identified with their marital status, I think it's almost less so now, because divorce is so well accepted. And so many women are now the ones filing for divorce.
Deena Kordt 10:22
So we've come a long way, baby. Oh, and that identity when you were Mrs. Joe Smith, that was your identity. And suddenly Joe doesn't want you anymore.
Nancy Perpall 10:37
No, Joe found somebody in accounting, who is now whose real soulmate? Yes, and how difficult that would be. So I want to unpack just a little bit what you mentioned, I love that your background was medical, and how you have
Deena Kordt 10:54
incorporated that into how you support people legally as well, just because you're seeing them come in legal is the first thing they think needs to be dealt with, and
aren't even aware or acknowledging and understanding what's happening to them physically, mentally, as well. And the fact that you could
make them more aware of that, and, and suggest ways that they could find support and heal in those ways. So I think that's just beautiful.
Nancy Perpall 11:26
I always recommended, I explained, you're coming here.
And I will give you the legal advice that's appropriate for your case. But I highly recommend that you go to your primary physician,
and really have a physical, because you're going to be going through things that you may need support, medical support to go through. And
in my personal practice, I saw a number of my clients developed. And I know we don't really know what causes breast cancer. But there was a very high incidence of breast cancer that I saw, you know, I followed my clients after many of my clients actually became friends after their divorce. So I followed many, many women after the divorce. And this trauma, the stress that does impact us.
You know, it the whole auto immune system is goes haywire during periods of severe stress. And when you lose somebody that you truly gave your heart to, and you gave them your heart with the expectation that we're not going to hurt it. That's devastating.
Deena Kordt 12:42
It's truly, and I don't think till you're there, you can comprehend that. So you might see a friend or a family member go through it, but it's different to experience it personally. Now, you mentioned people in menopausal stages of their life. What's the cause that you've seen, for divorces in those older ages in the 50s, and 60s, where it's double and triple that of others?
Nancy Perpall 13:14
I should have known you would be aware of that. But most people are not aware of that.
Given that this is basically your your life's work.
And pardon my voice I have very bad allergies. You know, in Sarasota right now. It's it's bad allergies, everyone has it in any event.
It's it's an interesting.
It's an interesting dynamic.
It's not really well researched right now, because it's really only been happening, say last five or 10 years.
But the theory is that
people who are getting divorced in their 50s 60s 70s I personally represented a man who was 82
and wanted a divorce because he wanted to die happy.
Quote unquote.
But in any event,
people have been in a relationship. It has not been a good relationship. They spent 2030 years in that relationship. And they just don't want to spend the next, you know, 20 years, even 510 15 years, unhappy. And I can tell you that COVID has really, really impacted. I think, you know, Planet wise, people really reevaluating their mortality, and trying to decide if they're not happy in this relationship.
And they can't fix it. Maybe there's no cooperation on the other side or interest in fixing it. People become really used to dysfunction. And when you remove that dysfunction, they become uncomfortable. So some people live in very unhappy relationships.
Because that's, that's what they expect. But that's, you know that theory that philosophy is really being questioned now, and people really are getting, you said, actually, for over 50, it's doubled for over 60, it's tripled in terms of the rate of divorce. So I mean, it's a very interesting dynamic, I think there is there are certain things associated with body changes as you get older, you get less concerned about what people are going to think you get less concerned even about what your kids are going to think. I mean, you've given them everything, you know, you've supported them throughout their, you know, baby to adolescence to young adulthood, maybe you've educated them, and given them their own weddings. And now it's your turn. And then that a lot of people who came to me, particularly men, in their 50s, and 60s said, it's my turn,
I have not been happy for years. But I put up with it for the family, for the grandkids.
Deena Kordt 16:12
We're gonna get right back to Nancy. But I want to share something exciting that we've got coming up, created, especially for you, you don't want to miss this, our online conference, the divorce symposium is coming up in September on a Tuesday evening for three hours, from 630 to 930. On September the 26th, be sure and grab your tickets at the earlybird pricing only 25 bucks. There's a whole lineup of really amazing people that are going to talk about numerous different topics that are related to divorce and can help support you, it's a chance to get to meet them informally and hear the information that they can offer that will really support you and help you through this tricky, difficult, painful transition. And it doesn't have to be so awful. And there are ways that it can, can work better for better outcomes and less conflict. So be sure and grab your tickets, the links will be in the show notes for that. And you'll want to get them while they're still at the early bird pricing. Now let's get back to Nancy, they are going through their own changes. I mean, I termed it test to pause. You know, women go through menopause men go through tested pause.
Nancy Perpall 17:23
We do know that their testosterone after 30 starts to reduce. They don't feel as as viral and you know,
just energetic. And they men in their 50s and 60s really do deal with depression. They don't talk about it. They don't get together with the but their bodies and talk about your feelings. For many men talk is the enemy.
Gradually, now we're teaching voice that you should use your words. You know, instead of hitting somebody, we're trying to teach boys that it's okay to cry. It's okay to have feelings. But unfortunately 50 and 60 euros, year old boys, men, when they were boys, they were told to man up. And I think it's the same in Canada as it is in the United States. And certainly many countries, it's even worse. But you know, you're not supposed to cry, you're not supposed to show your feelings. For men who are 50 and 60. It was all about competition, and showing that you're powerful, and that you're not going to back down. And this it takes its toll, especially as the society is changing. As women want to be more.
They want to talk more in their marriage, they want men to talk, I think men, men will say I'd climb the highest mountain and I'd swim the deepest ocean. What they don't realize is that all their wife or girlfriend wants it's a little conversation over dinner.
And you know, it's very hard for men. They're not verbal. They're not as verbal as women. And I think the research is that men say 7000 words a day women say 22,000.
So that just gives you some sense as to it's not necessarily evolutionary, I think it's more a social situation. And that's how men are taught. That's what society expects of them. You know, just as I said earlier, you know, when I was growing up, you know, I was very smart. I still I guess I still am.
You know, I would put my hand up and the teacher would say, Nancy, stop raising your hand. You're never gonna get a husband.
Well, I've had three
but I mean that went on
I was, you know, I'm 75 years old. I mean, when I was that's girls weren't supposed to be smart.
Deena Kordt 20:07
Yeah. And that was the thought that you needed to be submissive, submissive. And, and that would threaten that if you were smart, or questioning or speaking up too much, or maybe outperforming your male counterparts, that, that was frowned upon that that was not acceptable. That's gonna make them feel less powerful. And it's not a power, it doesn't have to be a power element.
I liked what you said about dysfunction, and how we can feel uncomfortable without dysfunction, because it's always been a part of our lives or for a large portion of our lives. And, and I can attest to that, because I was in a dysfunctional and abusive marriage for over 30, the marriage was 30 years together for over 30. And when I left that, my children were adults, I had felt i No one to be accountable to. But now what I wasn't sure, I thought I was unscathed until I started living my life that way, and realizing how conditioned I had been. So you do feel discomfort coming out of that, can you address that more as well, as you had mentioned COVID affecting people, also with COVID, affecting the
situations where there were dysfunction and also abuse, and how that escalated with isolation being a factor. And, and you know, just what you what you saw?
Nancy Perpall 21:49
Well, I will tell you that I think COVID has really affected both Canada and the United States dramatically. It is not over, we don't wear masks, and we don't shut down anymore. But I know many people who are getting COVID now.
And my husband and I both had it within the last year.
So COVID is still you know, with us, but we're not living in such a closed environment, as we were for almost a year and a half, at least in this country.
What that did was it really made the differences and the dysfunction in the marriage. And when I say dysfunction, what I'm talking about is when you are not addressing for whatever reason, when you are not addressing the issues that have started to annoy you, or provoke you in some way, and try to get to the bottom of why it is they annoy you or provoke you. Which bottom line is from the attachment theory of our development. We learn how to deal with conflict, we learn how to deal appropriately with anger, we learn how to love as children. And and that's the attachment theory of development. And you can google that and read about it, I urge you to do it. Because unless you understand your your form of attachment, and your spouse's or partners form of attachment, you're going to be in a completely dysfunctional situation.
So bottom line is people who have not really adapted each to each other's accommodation. When there's conflict, when there's trauma, you're going to have a dysfunctional situation where either they they start to buttheads all the time, or they become detached from each other. And when that happens, obviously, you can just tolerate that for so long.
You mentioned I think, before we started to record about my book, I wrote a novel around which all things bend. And the theory or the theme behind that is how far are you willing to bend for love?
Or how far are you willing to bend to get love. And every one of us being human has our breaking point. To the point we're not we're not going to bend any longer. And that's the whole plot in the book. And by the way, it's getting very good reviews on Amazon. Excellent.
Deena Kordt 24:41
We will put the link, we'll put the link in the show notes so that people can find you.
Nancy Perpall 24:46
Thank you. I would urge people actually, to anybody who's thinking about getting married, or thinking about leaving their marriage should definitely read the book. It's it's a simple it's very
Simple, but it's full of psychological advice. And, you know, I'm just getting very, very positive feedback about how it's helped many, many people.
So that's what I talked about dysfunction. It's, it's not adapting to your partner's style of communicating dealing with conflict. And when that happens, you know, emotional fireworks go off, you know, your heart races, you get upset, you know, you may act out, you may start to feel contempt. And when you start to feel contempt or resentment to your partner or spouse, you start to feel entitled. And when I say that, when you start to feel entitled, you feel entitled to always be cross or angry with them, you feel entitled to withhold sex, you feel entitled to have an affair.
And I can tell you over 30 years, how many times I heard people say, Well, this is how they were behaving. And you know, I tried to talk to them about it, and they wouldn't change and wouldn't change, I just can't take it anymore. I'm at my quote breaking point, which is why what gave me the idea for round which all things bend.
And, you know, because of that people felt entitled to do what they did to cause the divorce. Now, I'm not talking about sexual or physical abuse, if you're in that kind of situation, do not walk but run to the door.
Nobody should be in a situation where you're either physically, emotionally or sexually abused.
Women don't have to tolerate that anymore.
Although they had to, if they were economically dependent, if they were socially dependent.
There was an expectation that you quote, this was your cross to bear.
But that's no longer the case. I mean, women are free to make their own choices. And thank you for acknowledging the fact that I stand on the shoulders of other women. I mean, and my daughter, who's a law professor stands on my shoulders, and the children of the girls, the women, rather, I should say, who she is teaching in law school are standing on hers. And that's what we do as women. You know, although many women
don't support other women, just as many women are supporting other women. I mean, you are supporting women, with what you're doing with your work with your magazine with your podcast. And I know many, many other women who are trying to support other women.
And I think it's so important, we really are a sisterhood. And we need to love our sisters.
Deena Kordt 28:03
I love that term. And it, it gives you more of a let's work together not to compete, let's not judge, let's not criticize and shame. We are a sisterhood. And we all have a story we have someone who has lifted us. And it's it's for us to to lift others as well, and not be afraid to ask or lean on our sisters when we need them. And I think what we're doing is working because that awareness is is becoming greater, not only for the support, but also that they aren't alone in dysfunction and abuse in unhappiness in any type of a even a gender based
Speaker 2 28:50
way that they struggle to to feel acknowledged and valued. So it's sad to say that the women in say, their 50s 60s 70s, and those stages of their lives have stayed that long, where they aren't happy. But the fact that there's double and triple. It's not that we're promoting divorce, but we're promoting this strength, that they are growing and being finding that freedom and being able to speak up and say, you know, I don't want to spend the rest of my life this way and in this situation. And whether it's the men or the women,
Deena Kordt 29:28
they are becoming more aware that you will be accepted. You can't you do have options. And if you can't figure out a way to improve the situation you're in, you may need to leave it. So it's very interesting work and what you have seen and how you've supported that I applaud you.
Nancy Perpall 29:47
Well, I think women shouldn't look at
a relationship as a right in a relationship. You have a right to be happy. You have a right to it.
Specht, certain things, and many times those expectations are not discussed prior to the marriage. And people say they get married, but you become married after the ceremony. And to become married, you really have to know what each of you was expecting. And I can tell you in this country, brides are spending more time picking out their dress than they are picking out their husbands. I don't know about Canada, or any other place. But I can tell you, I have represented so many girl women, I should say, women, and I apologize, because of my age. Anyone below the age is a girl. But in any event, you know, they're married 1824 months, and you're coming in for their divorce.
You know, the father just paid for the wedding. And now he's paying for the divorce.
I mean, you ask them, what's the problem? I'm not happy.
When you're married, you're not supposed to necessarily be happy.
But
I don't know. It's it's just a very interesting, I think women have as much right? To demand what they want in a relationship. And I say demand cautiously. I mean, when I say that, you have to outline what your expectations are. And, you know, you can't ask for it in the heat of a conversation or an argument with your spouse. But there are times when you really need to say I need to talk to you about my feelings, how I feel, and not project about what you what your mind reading their feeling, because we can never mind read another person, especially the person we're married to.
That's just not even possible. And that's just
that's just a fodder for more fights. But
I think women are still I mean, The Hand That Rocks, the cradle rules the world. I mean, let's face it,
because men are improving. You see them at the grocery stores with with babies, you never saw that in their 60s 70s 80s or 90s. No, never, never. A man wouldn't be caught dead in a grocery store with an infant tied to his chest.
And I just saw one about a week ago, a man with a toddler and an infant.
And he's grocery shopping.
You would never see that ever, ever. As I was growing up? I don't think my father knew what the ANP really was. I think he thought it was some sort of stock on the Dow Jones. I don't think he ever set foot in the ANP was just unheard of. And that's the grocery chain. Correct? Yeah, well, but why? Because women have realized that they need to school their sons
to tell their sons that they can have feelings, that they understand how they feel that it's okay for them to express their feelings. And I say kudos to us for doing that. I know, I tried to do that with my son. And I, I would tell you that, you know, he's going on 50. And I think he's a very sensitive, you know, to, to women's needs. And, you know, to his wife and daughter and trying very hard, you know, not to have to be the man of the house.
Deena Kordt 33:48
That's fascinating. I love the term, become married versus get married, that that really
draws a different picture in your mind of how you're entering into that and to spend some time prior to the marriage to examine, really, what am I hoping to have in this marriage? What are we going to develop in our marriage and our relationship? And how, how can we get what we want from it, both of us and how to communicate that as well. And I think what's interesting is I was talking to a divorce coach the other day and she said that the you know, role playing can be very helpful. If there is a discussion, you want to have found that ahead, like you say, not in the heat of an argument, know what it is that you'd like to communicate what you are hoping to gain from that relationship, or the support that you're looking for. And and think that through how you can present it that it isn't confrontational. So I think that's really good. Now you mentioned or there's three F's of intimacy. Yes. That there that I noticed
I was in your bio. Tell us about that?
Nancy Perpall 35:04
Well, one thing that really needs to be discussed before you get married, and again, I discussed that in the novel around which all things bend, you need to discuss feelings about sex. In other words, do you think sex is just going to be something that we're going to do, just like we're doing now that we can't keep our hands off of each other, we all know that, that's going to fade. And once again, I'll bring it back to the medical reason you had phase because the oxytocin, that is that is in your body. And you know, marinating in your brain is the same chemical that lights up in your in your brain as cocaine lights up. So you feel a high, and you feel the sense of needing this person want to be sexually active with this person that's going to Wayne. So you need to talk about what is your expectation? And what are your feelings about sex? And then you talk about frequency? What's your expectation? About frequency? I mean, many men, you know, you know, if they're getting married in their late 20s, early 30s. And by the way, the average man in the United States is probably 30 to 32. Now, women 26 to 28. We're getting older and older, not necessarily wiser and wiser, older. And,
you know, what is your expectation? I mean, is your expectation that we're going to do like rabbits like we do now? Or, I mean, what about expectation, if we have a child, you know, we all know that the biggest, the biggest thing in terms of pouring cold water on your sexual intimacy is having a baby. Because suddenly, your whole body shifts to the needs of that infant, and not necessarily satisfying the sexual needs of the Father. And that's where a lot of marriages, and I am going to plug my website. I have gotten very good reviews on the blog, I wrote about having a baby. And I talk about that, you know, there's a new study. And it's a study where they take blood from the new father. And we're finding that new fathers have postpartum depression, just like women do. They feel detached from their relationship with their wife, they start to feel jealous of the baby, even though they suppress it.
It it's very hard for many, many men to play second fiddle, to, you know, the new queen or king in the household, which is the infant and of course, as women, the oxytocin, that is released in our body binds us to this baby. That's the survival. And that's just that's, there's no question that that's what happens. We all know that a mother and a child bonds. And by the way, they're finding now that that bonding happens when she's pregnant, and the baby is still in the womb, those chemicals are starting to circulate, and the baby feels it and the mother feels it. So I mean, there's a lot of, again, medical reasons why we feel the way we feel. And obviously, you know, some men are going okay, you said six weeks now, wait a minute, it's the fifth week. So does that mean next week? It's going time? Yeah. Okay. Like, can we, you know, what can we do? Because, you know, like, I didn't really need it.
I mean, you really have to have these discussions before. I mean, are we gonna have kids? Are you going to be patient? So that's the frequency. And then the next, which is absolutely a must is you have to discuss fantasies. What are your fantasies? I mean, are you going to be expecting us to do it with donkeys in the living room? Or is this just you know, is this missionary Are you going to? I mean, what is it your expectation? Do you have fantasies about what we're going to be doing? I mean, if we're not doing it now, what might you expect after we get married, and we have a routine, we have the pressures of our jobs, our household, children? I mean, we really need to be realistic, and how are we going to deal with it if one of us is disappointed in the other?
And, you know, I don't even want to go into the whole faking orgasm issue, because that's a whole different podcast. But, you know, many men are on to the, who was that adorable actress who did the faktor orgasm in the deli
and said I want what she has, but
oh, well, anyway, um,
You know, that's a whole different issue. Men know when you're faking, by the way, they know. But in any event, I mean, those are, those are the things you really need to discuss. And those are discussions that you should have before you get married.
On your honeymoon is not the time. Six months after you get married is not the time a year after you've become dissatisfied with each other. It's not the time you need to talk about these things, honestly. And I highly, highly recommend premarital counseling. There are so many websites, there are some free seminars, there are some free YouTubes that discuss things like I'm discussing now. And they're also in my book, it's absolutely essential to discuss with your intended expectations that each of you have before you get married, you know, it's too late after you've gotten married. And each of you become dissatisfied. You know, and I have the last 10 years of my practice, I really did more Prenuptial agreements than I ever did the first wedding. And Millennials are really asking for Prenuptial agreements more than ever, because they're usually have been in the workforce. They're not getting married out of high school. They're not getting married right out of college.
And they may have 401 K's, they may have pension plans, they may have their own investment. And so they want to protect those investments. And I always used to explain to
my clients that a prenuptial agreement is not a non compete clause, meaning that because you're signing a prenuptial agreement, it doesn't mean that something you know is going to go wrong, something is not going to go wrong with your marriage. It's it's it's just a safety net that if something does go wrong with your marriage, instead of having a court decide in the state that you live in through statute, what your assets are going to be you can decide. Many people don't want to sign agreements, which I understand because there's still an emotional component romantic component to it. But it's absolutely key for you to determine we whether your asset, where are your assets? What are your assets, and the most important factor? Please listen, the most important factor to determine and to discuss before you get married is what are your debts.
So many young people are going into marriages with 20 3050. If you're been professional school, sometimes 100. If you're a physician, going into practice some 200 $250,000 worth of debt, are we going to use marital assets to pay that debt? And if we do use marital assets, how am I going to be compensated because you're walking out with the license.
Many states you're not entitled to a portion of the license. So they're walking out the door, they've got the medical license, or the law license or even the realtor license. And you've paid off the money that they use to obtain those degrees. So it's very, very important. If you're marrying somebody who has a professional degree, and they're coming into the marriage with a lot of debt,
find out and discuss how you're going to deal with the debt and how one or the other is going to be compensated. If the marriage goes south.
I can tell you
what happened. several cases that I handled
as a result of COVID.
Businesses shutdown
you know, the streets were barren.
People were working from home, but the companies were taking the mail that was going to the office and guess where they were sending it home. Right. So that the employee would have the mail, right, not necessarily email but hardcopy mail coming to the house. And lo and behold, one spouse or the other is opening the mail and finding things that were going to the office not at home that they were keeping from them.
So guess how that ended?
Yeah, yeah, no, that happened several times. You know.
Now hearts from the girlfriend. Yeah, the boyfriend or you know, I mean, it went both ways, by the way.
Deena Kordt 44:54
So that leads me as well and I thank you very much for sharing the those
three F's of intimacy, feelings, frequency, and fantasies and how important that is to discuss those. And, and then naturally, that lead to how Prenuptial agreements can help as well with other, like the finances and assets, and how those are going to be managed. Now, this also is bringing up the fact that affairs happen. And what would you say is the reason that people have affairs? And how can a couple deal with that? What are some of the options that they have?
Nancy Perpall 45:34
I personally, after 30 years of over 30 years of doing this,
I think affairs occur because there's resentment in the man in the relationship. And one or the other feels entitled to look outside of the relationship for what they're missing in the relationship. It's as pure and simple as that. That sense of entitlement is is born from resentment.
And we,
if you've been married, and in an intimate relationship with a partner or spouse,
unless you're really blind to everything, you can tell if your spouse or partner is resenting something.
And you need to address it, when you sense it.
We build like,
I think, you know, it's not mental telepathy, but it's
a synchronization. When you've been with somebody for a long period of time,
you can see their responses mirrored in some manner of fashion. And when you get that sense in your gut, that they're resenting you, you need to address that, because that's going to grow into entitlement. And that's, I think that's why people have affairs. That's my own philosophy.
I do know that resentment equals entitlement and a psychological perspective. And I personally don't think it's any more complicated than that.
You know, somebody gets bored, they,
they start to distrust their partner, because they feel like they're holding out something and on some manner or fashion, they're not telling you the truth.
Deena Kordt 47:32
They're not telling you the whole story. And, you know, we can we can sense that if we're in an intimate relationship. So that's what I mean, I really think that it's born out of entitlement. And I thank you for simplifying that as well, because resentment, entitlement, and then distancing, and and then they start looking elsewhere to try and find someone that is their soulmate? Or is a better fit? Or is, you know, someone that they're going to experiment and see how that works. So that is very interesting. And
do you have also suggestions for how people can deal with an affair if there is one?
Nancy Perpall 48:19
Well, I think, you know, I've represented many women, as well as many men whose wives have affairs, it's harder for men to accept the fear of the wife than it is, for a wife to accept an affair of the husband, I'll be up there still in my office seeking a divorce because of the affair
as a general rule, and that you're always on thin ice when you're talking about general rules, because individuals and humans are so none of us they say they're snowflake, none of us are the same. I mean, we're all very, very different.
So it depends upon what you're willing to tolerate. But I can tell you from my experience, women are not willing under any circumstance to tolerate an emotional affair. Once the affair has become emotional, and they know from proof or however, they know that it's become an emotional affair between their husband and the new partner.
All bets are off, there's no reconciliation, there's not coming any back. And if you're not coming back from it, if on the other hand, he's had a massage with a happy ending, or gotten drunk on a business trip.
And
she finds out eventually,
I've seen people reconcile over those things. I mean, they have to do some work. They had to get into counseling. I'm not saying they're gonna sit there, hold hands and sing
Kumbaya, but I'm telling you with a little hard work, and a little determination, they can overcome that.
But it all depends upon whether it's emotional, purely physical.
I did have, I can talk about this only because it was in court. And so it was disclosed in court. But I represented a woman who
she wanted.
She wanted a new stove, wanted a new stove, wanted a new stove, one a new stove. And the husband was resisting, resisting resistance. And he had to go on this business trip, he went on a business trip. And when he came home, he said, I think you're right, I thought about it, and we should buy that stove. I think we should, you should have that stove, you deserve that stove. And she thought, wait a minute, something's up here.
But he became very attentive to her. She couldn't prove anything. She wasn't on the business trip, no one called her and said I saw your husband with X, Y, or Z. And so she sort of let it go.
And then
a couple of months later, a refrigerator breaks. And she says, I really think we need a new refrigerator. And he said, Well, I don't know, you know, i Why can't we get it fixed? And she said, What are you going on the next business trip. In other words, she figured out, eventually, she figured out that the reason why he was being like that is because he probably probably did something wrong on the business trip. So
to make a long story short, because it was I mean, they tried to, you know, blah, blah, blah, you know, they went to counseling, they did this did that and the other thing, but eventually, it did come to divorce. And that was because
she felt very strongly that there must have been some more of emotional connection with whoever it was in the business trip. And she eventually found out it was someone he worked with. So that was like, you know, that was not acceptable anymore. She was willing to sort of overlook what she, her gut told her that he probably had done. But he fooled her be by being so kind and considerate and getting her what she wanted.
So anyway, it's interesting, it just depends upon whether it's an emotional affair, or strictly a one night stand.
Deena Kordt 52:37
And that depends on the person, right, and what they're willing to accept. You have worked very extensively with conflict resolution, and you have been an advocate for that, for years and years. Would you say that that is one of the essential things that couples can do to keep their relationship healthy, and also the best way to recover after a divorce, if they if they aren't able to resolve those conflicts?
Nancy Perpall 53:07
I think conflict resolution
is
not as much of a nine a mindset, as it is, is a real dedication to avoiding
further hurting yourself, or the other person or your children, family, friends, etc.
Getting extremely angry, it fits of rage, when a divorce happens is not going to advance your game.
I've had many many woman women come in and say when they found out their husbands were having an affair with someone in the office, they were going to ruin them, they were going to do this, do that do the other thing.
But you have to step back and say okay, if I get him to lose his job, which you may have, you may be able to do, how are you going to support yourself or the children. Right now you're not employed. Or if you are employed, you're not making enough money to make ends meet, and to pay the mortgage and the kids schools and your activities and gas in the car and the car payments and all the rest of it. So you really need to determine what's going to what's going to suit your purposes more rage, and concentrating on getting even, or conflict resolution. And by that I mean trying to meet the person in the middle in some manner of fashion. And in my sphere of practice, it means meeting them in the middle financially. Now getting what you want, don't misunderstand. I was very successful, like getting my clients the best possible deal. But I did it by trying to teach them you know, almost like a paradoxical way of communicating
no longer communicate the way they're expecting you to communicate with them, you have to change how you're going to talk to them. And I used to actually go through these exercises with my clients, particularly women, you know, who wanted to scream and shout and you know, tear his hair out and, you know, pull his lungs out. And I understood that, trust me, I totally understood it had a lot of empathy for it. But that's not going to get you what you want.
So from my perspective, when I talk about conflict resolution, in a certain way, you're almost sounds like manipulation. Okay, if that's what you want to call it, I'm fine with that. But what I'm talking about is reducing your anger and reducing, projecting that anger on the other person and staying focused on what your endgame is.
Stay focused on what your end game is, you know, if you need alimony for X long, X number of years, how you're going to arrange that, so that you can both live to a certain extent, even though I don't care if he can't live, but you do. Because, you know, if he can't, if he can't make the car payment to get to work, you're not going to get the alimony payment. I mean, you have to put the whole puzzle together, and really be very patient and explain to your client,
Deena Kordt 56:25
what their goal is, how they can achieve it. But I can tell you, I've never seen anyone get what they really want, by you know, blowing up the other person. It just it doesn't work. It may you may feel good for a little while. But then the reality sets in that this is not something that is going to be long term, fulfilling what your needs are. And I think that's such a just a very clear way of communicating that can be used in all situations, whether it's with your co workers, with your family, your children, with your spouse, in a marriage, even if you aren't divorcing, as well as through divorce, is to dial back that strong, confrontational anger, whatever it is that's propelling you towards that conversation, and stop and really be honest with yourself, what is it that you would like to accomplish and communicate? And what is your what is your goal for having this conversation? And is there a way to do it that you can meet someone in the middle instead of just coming at them with guns blazing, and you're, you're just on fire?
You have a new book that is coming out this form?
Unknown Speaker 57:46
Can you please tell us more about that?
Nancy Perpall 57:51
The new book is a nonfiction book. The first relationship book I wrote was in the novel form because I thought it would be the easiest way to get some advice across through dialogue instead of just didactic writing or citing resources. And then I started to think about it. And I wanted to do more of a deep dive into relationships. And I think that there are five things that I've noticed, over the course of my years as a divorce attorney, and also someone who's been in, you know, marriage.
And I'm presently still married, I finally did it right. But I have a lot of therapy to figure out what I was doing wrong. Why was I picking the wrong people? What was I doing wrong? And so it's not that I talk a good game, I walked the walk, I did the work. I was in therapy for almost two years. And I really worked really hard at trying to find out what I did wrong in the relationship, and what I can do better in the next relationship. And that's what I highly recommend. And this book is called The malnourished marriage, five essential emotional nutrients for a healthy relationship. And we as humans learn through metaphor, and I use food metaphor because food has been in the research. Food is as essential to life survival, as love is to life survival.
We need food, shelter, and protection. And that's what love gives us. So I use communication is like water. Water can either crash or can flow words can either crash, but they can flow. And we all need to be careful about words and words that can trigger our spouse or a partner, and words that are less of a trigger. And I'm not saying you know, lie down and let them roll over you. But I'm saying you need to work on the communication style you have and recognize the stuff
I'll have your spouse or partner. And that's what I talk about in the first chapter. Second Chapter I talk about protein is the building block of the body, just like sex is the building block of the relationship. And I talked about the three F's there. And I actually go into more depth.
In each of the chapters, I give some exercises or some tips, or some dialogue about how you start, start talking about these things. For example, communication, I explain how you can go in and you want to talk to your spouse, and they're looking at the cell phone or their computer, and they're really not looking up. And you can say, you know, I really feel like our marriage is dehydrated. And they may look up like puzzled what you're talking about. And then I explain how you can sort of broach the subject by not being confrontational, but by using different language, to support different ideas and the relationship. And that's what I do. And then I talk about humor is like a carbohydrate, the brain needs the carbohydrate to keep it going. And your your marriage definitely needs humor. You know, compassion. And patience is like a good healthy fats. You know, healthy fats protect the body.
I mean, they protect your organs, and compassion, and patience protects your relationship. And God knows we all need passion, compassion, and patience, if you're married to a man,
in any event, if you're married to anyone, but particularly if you're married to a man, and then you know, the fifth one is trust. That's a big one.
You know, that is really a big one. And I compare that to vitamins. And
crust, is really, we talk about the attachment theory. And I go into that a lot in there in the in the book. And it's so important that you understand,
and you explore, if you haven't, by the time you get married, after the first fight, you have to explore what they're of how their family of origin dealt with conflict, where their parents screamers
did your spouse or partner lay in bed with a pillow over their head trying to hide themselves from from the fight that their parents were engaged in?
Unknown Speaker 1:02:27
Did the parents just detach from each other and stonewalled each other and be silent and withdraw from the communication, because that's what they were taught. And that's what you can expect them to do. So you don't want to be surprised when you have your first fight. I always recommend having one big fight before you get married. So that you can really talk about all these things. And I'm not saying I'm sort of saying that tongue in cheek, but I mean, you're going to have disagreements. And depending upon their attachment style, and depending upon how they're, they will, what they're modeling as children that plays over and over and over again, in life, whether it be in your intimate relationships, casual relationships, working relationships, or whatever relationship you're in, your attachment style is going to be determinative of the success of your relationship. And that's what I talk about in terms of trust. And trust is all about your attachment style. So I did, I did a series of blogs about this. And I got such feedback that so many people said you really need to write a book, because we want more. And so that's why I wrote the book. That's fantastic.
Deena Kordt 1:03:50
So Nancy, you have mentioned some data about the attachment styles. Now, your book isn't available just yet. Do you have any recommendations for where people can learn more about attachment style, because this, this is very important.
Nancy Perpall 1:04:06
Honestly, all you have to do is Google attachment style in relationships, and you are going to get like 20 million
opportunities to read about it. Okay, and some are very simple. Some are New York Times, you know, in their magazine section.
You know, there are many, many people who are writing about this attachment style, because more and more, especially in marital relationships, that's what the therapists are diving into what was your attachment style, what's your attachment style, and then trying to work with the couple so that each can appreciate the other's attachment style and reduce the conflict, again, conflict resolution, reduce the conflict in the marriage, and humans are going to have conflict. If you're married, you're going to have conflict. There is no marriage. You
ever created even Adam and even had a problem and disagreeing about the apple. But I mean, you're going to have conflict, you have to expect conflict after you get married. And you need to have, how are we going to deal with it. And that's why I highly recommend premarital counseling.
And it's affordable. I mean, now with this tele tele counseling, I mean, you can, you can get, I think there are three or four sites out there, I don't have them on the tip of my tongue, which will give you 20 minutes of free counseling to determine if this is the right fit. And in fact, there's several in Canada. One recently I saw in Canada, where it was a 20 minute free consult. And they they deal with a range of things. Yeah, there are psychologists, they deal with a range of things, but one of them was premarital counseling. So you can find it if you want it. And I would urge people to get premarital counseling, before you get married. And my final tip is that see a lawyer, if you're thinking about separating, don't separate and then see the lawyer get some good advice. Because you can get bullied by your spouse, if they if you don't really know if you're not on solid ground on what your rights are going to be.
And you know, you may have far more rights than you ever realized. And that will give you the confidence and the power to make the appropriate decisions that you need to make in the relationship.
You know, again, I it's a right of every woman to want to have a good relationship. And if you're being emotionally, sexually or physically abused, and I've represented my share of women who were
you have to get out, there is no coming back, there's not going to be any repair. If that has gone on in your marriage. I'm sorry, I've never seen it work.
Deena Kordt 1:07:03
Thank you for this very, very valuable advice. It's just fascinating to hear what you have learned, and the lessons that you can offer to people the suggestions and advice, it's so, so powerful and giving them some more courage and knowledge in in being informed and better prepared. Whether they want to improve their relationships with that there's that they want to stay in and manage conflict, which is inevitable. And I want to just reiterate the those five essential emotional nutrients, I love that you have related that to food, it does help us remember that so communication, your words, sex, humor, compassion, and patience are together and trust. So we are going to be watching for your book that is coming out this fall. And in the meantime, people can read the novel around which all things bend. So we will link that in the show notes. Nancy, you have just been a pure delight to have on the show. You're a natural teacher. And we are so appreciative of you sharing the lessons you've learned the knowledge you've gained, and, and just the beauty that you're bringing to this world by encouraging people and especially women to to follow their dreams.
Nancy Perpall 1:08:35
Well, it has been an absolute pleasure to be with you. And I have to tell you, there is a special place in my heart for Canadians. I lived in England for three years in the 70s. And people always talk me for a Canadian, not an American. And I asked I said why do you think I'm a Canadian? Because you're nicer.
Deena Kordt 1:09:02
Oh,
Nancy Perpall 1:09:04
I mean, invariably, that's what they meant. You know, you're not pushy, you know that look, American.
Well, thank you very much. But I mean, I just, I was always taken for a Canadian. Where are you from? and Canada, um, Pennsylvania.
Anyway, no, but um, and actually, my two of my dearest friends are Canadian.
Unknown Speaker 1:09:28
One is from Vancouver and the other is from Quebec. But yeah, and anytime I'd love I love Canada and I love Canadians. Well, I'm not saying that because I want you to buy my book, although I want you to buy but I do. I love Canadians.
Deena Kordt 1:09:45
Well, it's mutual. I grew up in southern Saskatchewan right on the Montana border. So we you know, we had friends we always had a close relationship with with the United States and with I just in fact my grandmother was born and
Unknown Speaker 1:10:00
California. Where are you, though? Are you're in Florida. But yes, it's, you know, just it's so there's so much beauty and I think that we are missing something if we think of that border as, as a wall. So thank you for sharing your time with us today. And I'm really excited to introduce you to the audience.
Nancy Perpall 1:10:22
Well, thanks again. I really appreciate the opportunity and I've thoroughly enjoyed it.
Deena Kordt 1:10:28
Hopefully you heard something today that helps you wherever you might be in life. Do you have questions or a suggestion for a topic you want to know more about? Let me know. Check the show notes for all the contact information. Follow this podcast and find us on social.
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