Psychologist Dr. Jody Carrington shares her valuable insight & wisdom around navigating divorce.
In family systems & relationships, feeling seen and being connected to those around you is so important to navigating the chapters of your life.
Today I am truly honored to have Psychologist & Author Dr. Jody Carrington join me to share her valuable insight & wisdom around human connection, navigating divorce and how to handle conflict.
Some key take-aways:
- Ask "Tell me more."
- Call in your village for support.
- Reach IN.
For more information, you can find Dr. Jody online @ drjodycarrington.com
Phone: (403) 559-4061
Facebook: Dr. Jody Carrington
Instagram: @DrJodyCarrington
LinkedIn: Dr. Jody Carrington
YouTube: Dr. Jody Carrington
Watch the video of this interview on our YouTube channel.
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Dr. Jody Carrington 0:00
Well hello everybody is Dr. Jody Carrington here today, and I am so excited because I get to join you for this episode of the Divorce Magazine Canada podcast. Let's take it away, Deena.
Deena Kordt 0:12
Hey, are you or someone you care about considering dealing with, or been through a divorce or separation? Well, you're in the right place. You don't have to do this alone. There are people who care and want to help. Hi, I'm Deena court, and author, blogger, publisher, and empowerment coach. Thanks for joining me on the divorce magazine Canada podcast. You are going to hear from our team of experts and professionals how to navigate this difficult transition in your life easier, more efficiently, and with better outcomes. Did you know we host online divorce resource groups that are free to attend and everyone is welcome to check out the links in our show notes. And be sure and join us. We love bringing experts to you. Please refer to our terms of service available on our website, divorce magazine canada.com. And stay tuned at the end for the legal language. Ready? Here we go. Who Dr. Jody Carrington, if you have not heard of her, it's quite possible. You've been living under a rock. She's a renowned psychologist sought after for her expertise, her energy and her approach to helping people solve their most complex human centered challenges. This woman is phenomenal. She has the biggest heart of gold, big personality that is so engaging and so much fun to be around. Now she focused much of her work around reconnection, and the key to healthy relationships, and productive teams. She's written two books, she's a best selling author. She's a speaker, and she definitely uses her humor. She also loves to use sentence enhancers that aren't necessarily appropriate for young ears. So if you've got some littles around you, you might want to find a different time to listen or throw in your earbuds. All that she has learned in her 20 year career as a psychologist is shared with us. And she teaches us how to be empowered to empower those around us she she helps us reconnect in a disconnected world. And feeling seen is her latest book. Jodi's message is as simple as it is complex. We are wired to do the hard things, but we were never meant to do any of that alone. I am truly honored that she has spent time with us today to give us some of this beautiful insight and wisdom that she has to offer. Let's meet her right now. Oh my god. Okay. This has to be my absolute top wish for a guest and I am truly honored. Little fan girl here that Dr. Jody Carrington is honoring us with her presence today. And she always amazes she brings, she brings the reality she brings us us to what is the most important thing right now. And if you haven't read her books, get them. They're phenomenal. Welcome, Jody, thank you so much for being with me today on the show.
Dr. Jody Carrington 3:30
Oh my god, okay, no pressure. It's gonna be great. It's gonna be a great fucking episode. Okay, so I'm gonna bring it off. So what let's let's do it. I'm so excited to talk about this today.
Deena Kordt 3:42
I was so impressed that you offered divorce workshop recently. And I mean, it affects every single area of people's lives. And I'm sure you've experienced that in your practice over the years that families or individuals, whoever's coming through the door, if they've been around a divorce or a separation from any stage of their lives, it has left an impression for sure, but has an impact and some trauma. And, you know, it's just, if we can understand more of that and hear your insight on some of the things that that happened in within us during that time. I think it it just helps with that awareness. So those who are going through it can be conscious of that and maybe help reduce the amount of trauma that you know, maybe that's not necessary.
Dr. Jody Carrington 4:39
Okay. So I've been a psychologist for almost 20 years now. And I spent 10 And I was on a lab psychiatric inpatient unit with kids at the Alberta Children's Hospital. And I think what is what will never change is we will never automate relationships we are neurobiological wired for connection. We all want to be deeply connected to each other, the issue with human relationships is it is the thing we need the most to survive. Those of us with the healthiest relationships are the most mentally well. But relationships are also the thing that stand to create the most trauma in our lives. So they're the thing that can also hurt us the most, you see. And so, it is this interesting game, this trick this dance. In fact, I love the dance analogy. One of the My Favorite psychologists in the world, Harriet Lerner has written a couple of books about that, that are so old now, but so brilliant, the dance of intimacy, the dance of anger, this idea that when you get involved in a relationship, it is always about the dance. And given the stories in which we come from, you know, whether we have an ability to communicate, or we can navigate, big emotion, or we can we run, we walk, we hide, we do whatever. Because conflict is a part of any relationship, full stop any relationship that matters will have conflict. It is not about how much of it, it's what you do with it, that really matters, your ability to navigate when you disagree, or when things fall off, and you have the ability to repair. And, you know, I talk about this all the time, I met lots of people who when they fall in love with each other, truly to the beginning of their relationships, that's the best part of ourselves, we, when we're at our most vulnerable, we see the best parts of ourselves. And we give the best parts of ourselves. And what happens is, over time, when somebody starts to mean something to you, you start to build up defenses. And if there's no ability to communicate through those defenses, or navigate through those defenses, we turn it up louder, and louder and louder. And then oftentimes, when there's no way back, or No buddy to help facilitate a repair, or the hurt has just been too great to ever achieve that repair, you still need somebody to navigate through the next chapters. Right? So divorce is never the end, even, especially when you have children. And so what I think a lot about is people, you know, throughout my career would be very concerned about kids in divorce. And so they always be like, I'm so concerned about this, or can you see my kid is a disaster, I'm always worried about the big people, always, because nothing ever happens in isolation. It's always about a family system. So I can give your kid you know, gold standard treatment till they're, you know, 65, which means maybe I see them for an hour a week. But if I send them back to a warzone, or two people who can't communicate, it's a waste of time. Okay. And I think oftentimes, what we've tried to do is isolate the effects of a broken family system into treating one or the other or, you know, particularly the children. And for good reason, because what we know to be true is the Adverse Childhood Experiences research. So some of the most profound research on kids and trauma. It's, it's getting dated now. But it has stood the test of time for many years, because it's so robust. It's Vince Felitti. And colleagues came up with this a number of years ago, and they were asked, through a, this is not how they started their research, but it's what came out of it. What are the top 10 most traumatic things that kid will experience here at 18. And they just run a statistical analysis on, you know, 17,000 pieces of data and said, Here's the top 10 things, I'm going to number them, one to 10, that if a kid experiences without intervention before the age of 18, they will be fucked up later in adulthood. Okay, so this is what we know to be true. One of those things, is experiencing the divorce of your parents. Now, it's right up there with experiencing emotional abuse, physical abuse, having your partner or your parents go to jail, watching your mother being treated violently. Those are some of the other ones that make that top 10 list. And they beat out things like losing a sibling. They beat out things like you know, death of have any like, and people say to me all the time, well, how come this is more a predictor, stronger predictor than, you know, 1000 other things? And I mean, the answer is, I don't know. Like, statistically speaking, we know that divorce is very, very difficult in family systems, it doesn't mean that it's not the best choice. In the end, it doesn't mean that it won't do better for the family system later, or the particular players in the family system. There's no sort of context to that one number. But what we know to be true about it is that it is this experience that is profoundly difficult for children to navigate, mostly because the big people in their world, including grandparents, and aunts, and uncles, and all those things are inevitably disconnected as well inevitably going through their own stories as well. And so those who typically do the walking through big emotion, just like in grief are also debilitated and understandably so. So what I think is so fascinating about this process is it is it's not becoming less popular, less. In fact, it's becoming more and more perfect. The more disconnected we get in this world, the less skilled we are at repairing, giving a voice to each other, particularly men have a much more difficult time with an emotional language than women. This is just historically how we've shown up in the world, we have more words for language, as women, generally speaking, than men do. And the ability to then repair a relationship requires an emotional language. So how you navigate that, you only learn an emotional language, when you have connection with other people, you can't tell somebody how to be emotionally laden, you have to show them. And the more disconnected we are becoming, the harder it is to engage in that process. And so when I think about your work, when I think about, you know, the the ability to sort of draw attention to domestic violence, to divorce, to the, to the ramifications of all of those things, it comes back to this idea of our ability to either connect through hard things or have somebody facilitate that connection. And that won't change for the remainder of our lifetimes, that will only become a much more important skill to either offer or to instill in our children. And certainly in the relationships we're currently in.
Deena Kordt 11:14
I love how you approach that it's, it's far more holistic than just piece by piece. And people are in chaos. I love that flip the lid picture that you that you communicate in, in your writing and in your work that people are in a state of chaos, and how are they going to be able to navigate through these difficult situations without some support. I really what really struck me too, in, in some of the writing, or some of the reading I've done in your books is we have to allow, especially say with children, for example, for them to be dysregulated. So we can teach them and help support them to learn how to self regulate. And I think so many adults have never even learned that and then and then we're also trying to support our children through it. And we haven't, we haven't learned it and I like that's something I love about your work is helping us recognize that this is so important.
Dr. Jody Carrington 12:17
Well, you know what I think so often is I just you know, whenever I ask anybody what they want for their children, they say me included, you know, I we just want them to be happy, happy. And here's the shitty thing Happy Happiness is one emotion in the plethora of emotions we need a script for in order to be able to process it. So if we want to sugarcoat all this shit, we're happy. It's good. It's fine. It's good. You're fine. Everybody gets a medal. Oh, no, no, no, you didn't lose you, you finished eighth place. And here's the metal, everything's fine. It's okay, Daddy's fine, mommy's fine. Everybody's fine. No, we're not fucking fine. And sometimes you have to name it. In fact, always, Dan Siegel said this a psychiatrist, you have to name it to tame it. And when we are going through a shitshow, as a family system, the ability to identify and name it in a developmentally appropriate way, is so much more critically important than trying to protect or sugarcoat, or, with the best of intentions, obviously, save our children from hardship. And there's a fine line, obviously, I'm not throwing everybody in the mix. And we make this I mean, I see, parents make this mistake all the time where the kid becomes the regulating other, we put the child or the teenager or the adolescent or whoever in between the fighting couple, and disastrous every time. Understandable every time. Because we're, you know, trying to make them happy, be the one that makes them happy. And what we often forget is that the chaos is necessary to learn the calm. It's not that they you know, they're very intuitive. And I mean, through my own parents divorce, I remember being very connected to when emotions would change, when my mom was really sad when my dad was really distant, whatever that deal was, like, they can do their very best to try to protect, but it helps to be able to give context, far more than it does to sort of avoid it. Yeah. And I think sometimes, you know, particularly I hear this a lot in grief, too, because there's so much grief involved in divorce that we don't often talk about. You don't want to talk about it. You don't want to bring it up. You don't want to make anybody else sad. And the hard part about it as you have to offer those opportunities to be like Okay, can we check in for a minute, big changes have happened in our family. What's the hardest part? What does this feel like to you? And as a parent, you know, you can say this to your child. So I'm What am I missing? What do you wish I was doing better? What does dad need to do? What does mom need to do? Right? And we sometimes forget that those open ended sort of checking in things and they might say, I don't know. Get Back Together Don't be such a fucking idiot, or stop yelling at each other or whatever the deal is. And the answer often isn't to try to then fix or, you know, provide a solution to that whatever that response is, often with another question, gives them the space to make sense of it. Right? Tell me more. Tell me more. Those three words save me quite often. Tell me more. Tell me more. And I don't want to talk anymore. That's enough. Okay. All right, I get it. There's big emotion here. And you deserve to be all of those things. And I'm gonna just keep checking in, because how you feel about this matters, too, right. And so it's that ability to hold some space for here's the other thing that I think is really critical in this space. If you are a parent, navigating your own divorce, do not be sad. If you have to hang on to other people that you know, pull in your village to do the holding of your children. Sometimes the best conversations will happen when you call in your best friend, or, you know, your sister or the hockey coach. And say things like, you know, I'm really worried about Asher. We're going through this divorce. You know, he's seen dad, not as much as we'd like or, you know, we're struggling a lot with that he's been really quiet. I don't know if you've noticed this on the bench, but like, he really admires you. I mean, I'm wondering if it's, can you take him for a ice cap? Do you have time to go for a Slurpee? You know, best friend's mom? You know, at the next sleepover? Can you just check in with him after dinner? You know, we all get that call to action. And we're, we're all over it. Right? If my best friend said to me, you know, can you take Carter for a drive tomorrow? And just check on him? Like? Yes, because we tend to be better with other people's children. Primarily because we stay more emotionally regulated. Primarily, we access the best parts of ourselves. And so we feel guilty not only as a parent, because we you know, we've we've ended the marriage or the marriage has ended, we've now fucked up this whole family system that we dreamed we would never do. We said we would never do we put our 1000 are children in positions that we never dreamed we would. And so now we want to fix that we don't want anybody else to be involved in that. We want to edit it. And here's the problem. You're amazing. So you're our number one that we need to worry about. So pull in your people. And it's not a failure. It's a sign of success, when you can be like, Okay, I need to gather the resources here because I don't even think I know what I don't know right now. Because I because there's so much on my heart. Does that make sense to you, Deena?
Deena Kordt 17:35
Jody, that is, I have found one of the biggest stumbling blocks for people there's so much shame and guilt, so much shame and guilt and feeling of failure. They're just totally embarrassed to admit this is going on, let alone reach out and ask for help. That's one of the bravest things you can do. And it's one of the best gifts you can give not only to yourself, but your family like the peace of mind, the relief not only to name it, like when you said earlier, to name it. Just that relief that people aren't trying to avoid that big fucking elephant in the corner of the room that is just ugly.
Dr. Jody Carrington 18:09
And we say even in mental health all the time, you know, like don't be scared to reach out, don't be scared to reach out, here's the issue. This is a call to action to all of us who have friends going through divorce because you know that when you're in the middle of it, it's shitty to reach out. And so what I would say we need to do more of these days is reach in and at the risk of not being saying the right thing at the right time or being overbearing or any of those kinds of things. You know, being able to say hey, like, Can the kids come over for a sleepover tonight? Is there anything you know, I'm going to stop by just I made some lasagna? I'm just gonna leave it on the freezer if you don't need it tonight. You know, why don't you come over for dinner tonight? Does that sound okay? And like can I take the kids I know you just got a week with them but like you know, why don't we all have a split whatever that is and you just then have the opportunity I in to be able to sort of navigate that still there's in conclusively there's a division of resources that happens when when a couple splits up right some friends go some side some goes that Yeah, mostly what happens is everybody just retreats because they don't they don't want to be on a fucking side. They don't want to mess it they don't want to sit back. And I think I think the biggest piece of advice there is to the best of your ability keep showing up. And and I think it's such a lonely isolating time for so many people that we sort of forget that and we don't want to pull get pulled into the mess. We don't want it we don't know what to say, you know, is it was there an affair Did I miss something like fuck, like, You know what I'd rather not. I say this all the time in grief, just show up. Just show up if you can, right and it doesn't mean you have to fix it or you're going to be you know, involved in that process. It's just really about like, don't never forget we need each other. You know, and you know, we've never seen this high. This concerning. Of a I don't know how to say this the highest rates of suicide ever. That we've ever In particular, the highest rated suicide in our country is middle aged men, and who get isolated the most historically, is the men in the situation. And oftentimes, they are seen as the ones sort of causing sometimes the stress, though, you know, whatever. But I will tell you and I've often said this, if there's a regulating other for the people who needed the most, they will be easier to navigate, they will be much more present for the children and for their partners. If there is somebody who can step in, and be that place for them to land. It doesn't mean you have to support support or condone or, you know, even agree with actions. But it is so critically important to just not abandon. And I know it feels like it's the right thing, if you know, we're showing the other side, or whatever that looks like, but I gotta tell you, it's being able to help you to stay in and stay connected to the best of your ability, as a family system or a friendship group during this time during these times, it's probably one of the most important things you can you can do.
Deena Kordt 21:02
I love that you're encouraging people to do that reach in, that creates such a visible picture, at least in my mind of doing that, instead of that automatic retreat response is to do the opposite is reach in and grief when you mentioned that, that is exactly the same scenario. So many people feel awkward and uncomfortable, how, you know, how do I show that I care reach in, and I have seen that had, you know, some some very significant losses in our family. And that was, what really stuck with us is those people who just showed up, I remember, I've lost two brothers at very young age, they were young adults, and different, you know, nine years apart. And one of the biggest things I remember is one of our close neighbors and friends, she just showed up, and she just start cleaning bathrooms, and she just started washing dishes or she like, and to me, that was the most beautiful way to just be there present a cup of tea, which just show up in front of you, like that, to me, meant so much. And what you're what you're sharing with people is they need to just do it step in, don't let these people you aren't asked to solve it. And you don't have to get all stuck in the weeds with them. But, but just show up and be there and accept them and and be a calming presence, if you know if that's all you offer. And as an example, what this lady did is she wasn't there, trying to say the right thing. Yeah. And, you know, it's just, it's such a gift that we can give to each other. And as far as facilitating and and that's another thing that I'm seeing in our we've got free online resource groups where it's, it's a support. So we have some of our team will show up, and whoever happens to show up that night, they will say, you know, this is where I am, this is where I'm hoping to be or this is where I'm kind of stuck. And we're there to say you're not alone. There are people who care and want to help. And even if, you know, we can suggest some places that they could look for some support and some help. But so far, so many of them, they're just like, I'm not alone. This Yes, it just is a an encouraging and strengthening moment for them to, to speak of it and feel safe to do so.
Dr. Jody Carrington 23:39
And I think sometimes we really underestimate right, that there are two sides to to those stories, right and really staying connected in the family system, regardless of the story that happens. And it's so hard to do that when you completely disagree with somebody's choice or their actions or you know how they showed up. But shame is such a debilitating emotion. And our hope is that, you know, even in the time of chaos, though, there will be healing that happens that somebody will do the work that we will come out of the other side and be a better partner, a better human, a better co parent in this situation. And I often think about this, you know, as we've navigated this on our own family, like, at the end of the day, particularly when there's children involved. This isn't over, right, like there's still weddings and funerals and graduations and you know, birthdays and all of those things. And when there's been lots of pain and hurt and shame and suffering, my God, it takes such a massive heart and to be able to start to repair some of those things. And I really love in these situations to really consider what Empathy means, right? Because empathy doesn't require you to forgive or to condone or to support or to believe or to do any of those things. It requires you to suspend judgment temporarily. And so if you are the father of my niece or you are the mother to my nephew, where you are the you know, whatever that is right you're now the grandparents of my child, you will always be that. And it doesn't mean that I need to condone or give you free rein or love fucking everybody that's nothing Papa Papa be kind and don't tolerate bullshit in that order. And on repeat becomes so critically important mostly because and this is where I find the biggest motivation for people is your kids are watching. You can't tell them how to repair it, you have to show them. You can't tell them how to speak about other people in public, you have to show them, you can't tell them how to step in and be brave, you have to show them. Right. And I think what you do with that is sometimes the biggest motivation. And at the end of the day, it's always that ability I think, to be able to, to be in a place of integrity, and it's fucking difficult. Like it is it is so remarkably hard. And I think that, you know, that that may be, you know, goes without saying, but I mean, I, I always want to be clear, this is not about you tolerate the things that you shouldn't tolerate. No, no, this is about being able to navigate from that place of emotional regulation, how you get through hard things, because we we don't have, we're wired for all of this shit, which is unfuck. Unbelievable. To me, we are wired for it. We were just never meant to do any of the loan. And if we want our kids to be able to navigate this even better in the next generation, then who we surround ourselves with when we can't do it. And there'll be times where we can't. Who's got us? And then how do we come back in and create a script for them? Right. And I think that's, that's the thing that motivates me all the time. When I when I think like, Fuck you I'm not doing this, or that's bullshit, I'm not talking about this, or this guy's a son of a bitch. And I'm never they don't deserve and they treated my brother this way. Or they were a bitch to me, like Bucky, you know, all of those kinds of things, which, which becomes really easy. And for some people that is necessary, right? Like done, you don't, I get it, right? Whenever possible, that ability to figure out the dance of repair, not necessarily forgiveness or condoning or even understanding, but how you navigate that results in an ability to show your children how to do it. And it takes so much less energy for you than to stay in that place of I'm going to fucking fight every single day of my life. Do you know? Does that make sense?
Deena Kordt 27:28
Yes. And it does take a lot of energy. I love to learn to practice empathy without judgment. Because we don't know their perspective, we weren't in their shoes.
Dr. Jody Carrington 27:41
So that's the definition of empathy. It is no judgment, right? So it's not empathic. You're judging. Right? Exactly. And we're so good at judging, like, this is what we do as humans. Yeah. And so people say this to all the time, okay, so like, how do you not then condone or support if you just sort of give somebody the benefit of the doubt. And the interesting part is, is if I say to you, okay, so I listened to somebody who is, you know, cheated on their wife four times. They were, you know, emotionally abusive to their families, and they were doing all these things, you know, how could you ever have empathy for them? And I will tell you what the prerequisite for empathy is its context. It is never what we ask this question all the time. What's wrong with you? What's wrong with you? What's wrong with you? How could you make those decisions? What's wrong with you? The question for me always is what happened to you?
Deena Kordt 28:29
Isn't Jody freakin amazing? We're gonna get right back to her because she's got so much more gold for us. But I wanted to make sure that you heard about something that we've created, especially for you. It is our online conference, the divorce symposium that's being held for three hours on a Tuesday evening in September, on the 26th, you will hear a lineup of incredible speakers with so much information to help support you through a divorce or a separation, whether you're thinking about it or in the middle of it are on the other side. Tickets are available on Eventbrite now, their early bird tickets, pricing of 25 bucks, all the links are in the show notes. Let's get back to Jody.
Dr. Jody Carrington 29:05
And when I can understand what happened to that particular person, context is the prerequisite that allows me grace. It doesn't allow me to forgive or forget or condone, but it allows me the grace to understand what it must have been like to be you that you felt so unseen and unworthy, that you needed to reach out to other people that you felt like nobody was listening to you that you were completely disrespectful and everybody else loved each other in this family, and you felt completely left out. And so you yelled and you screamed in order just to get seen. I get it. I understand. I understand. And I can say that genuinely. I don't think it was the right action. Right. I think that the you know, the, the outcome is damaging. But the only way people rise and heal is when they're acknowledged. If I keep telling people how did you You know, do your deep breathing journal, go for a run, fucking drink your kale, whatever the deal is, that does not heal anybody. The number one, like when you were acknowledged, you were eyes. And the definition of acknowledgement is a holding space for an act of bearing witness to understanding just how the fuck you got here, then you rise, right? It's not you, I'm not forgiving you for these actions. I'm saying, it makes sense to me how we got here. And then what do we do from here? You see, then when somebody acknowledges how you got there, and there is an ability to say, Okay, now what's next, then people have the ability to be a dad, again, they have the ability to be a co parent again. And often we don't choose who we vilify the choices that people have made. And so fuck it. What's the point then? If I am this much of an asshole? If I am this much of a terrible human being? Then fuck it by this will stay there.
Deena Kordt 31:03
You're not wrong. Yeah.
Dr. Jody Carrington 31:04
So what's the answer? I mean, it's somebody and not necessarily the person involved directly in the relationship. But there needs to be an ability to hold space for. And I've sat in prisons, I've sat in, you know, boarding houses, and, you know, with people who've got their kids apprehended. And it's some of the most powerful work you can ever do, or I've ever done in my whole career would be Tell me more. I, I see it, I know you're doing the best you can't with what you got. I said, I've assessed and treated over 1000 Kids this country, I've never met a parent who didn't want to or intend to do the best they ever could by their children. And so many of them have fucked it up royally. But there's always a story. There's always a story.
Deena Kordt 31:45
What I love about that Jody is that now, correct me if I'm wrong, but when people feel understood, and seen for where, you know, there's allowance to look at where they've come from what has happened to them, then they feel like they can detach from that identity and let go of, I'm just going to continue being an asshole, because this is what I'm been doing this is, this is just where I'm at. And nobody's gonna see me any differently. But it's like, oh, wait a minute, Somebody is accepting me for who I am today, they are making the effort to understand what has happened to me to become this way. Okay, maybe I can drop that whole persona and try and do better. And this person, I love that. It's just the most beautiful, we're walking each other home. Yeah, you know, we can, we can do that. And not condone something they've done or the way they've acting, but we're still there for them creating that space, I think that's beautiful. You know, what I really, like, I love the feeling scene. And I was thinking about that, how it's different to be seen, or feel seen. And on the back where it says allowing yourself to see and be seen. So this is so I want to unpack this because, wow, I think for so many people, especially I'm speaking for myself too, coming from an abusive situation for so many years, I try really put a lot of effort into being invisible. So I wouldn't trigger somebody, but I was seen. So allowing myself to see and be seen or to create those spaces for others also helps me feel seen. And understand that I I am I am seen I am worthy, I am more than what the triggering causes. And I just this is just such a beautiful concept. And I I love how you bring this to our awareness of how we can do this for ourselves and for others. And it's so sad when you say how and I know, I'm putting a bunch of stuff here together, but the isolation that, that so many men are feeling that isolation and how, you know, we could get into how the pandemic has all the isolation involved there and what that's done to families to, to escalate a lot of this, but it's really sad when you think of how many people are not feeling seen or allowing themselves to, to, to be seen and to and then how do you put that effort into seeing others?
Dr. Jody Carrington 34:35
Oh, yeah. I mean, I think it's it gets overwhelming to consider it right when we're just like, oh my god, are you kidding me? Like I'm so exhausted. I feel like I'm failing everybody in my I'm burnt out. I gotta work and I got to navigate all these things. I think that, you know, it starts with just the littlest things. And I think that when we slow it down enough what we forget so many times, it's just how much we matter to so many people and that by our ability simply to send a text message to somebody, give a compliment to your ex partner at pick up a drop off, especially when they don't deserve it. When you, you know, wave to a stranger, when you text, you know, your your current partner, your healthy relationship, and you say, I just need to tell you, I think you're amazing. I think sometimes we really underestimate the necessity to provide that connection to the people we love the most. Because here's the interesting things. You see, empathy is a skill, you're not born with it, you have to, you can't give away something you've never received. If nobody has ever been kind to you, you can't give it away. If nobody has ever taken a moment to acknowledge you, you will not be able to acknowledge another. And so especially when people or kids or anybody don't don't appear to deserve it, the hardest ones to give it to are the ones who needed the most. And I don't want you to do that disingenuously right, in a manipulative way, I want you to think more about this ability to sort of build a relationship with somebody that you because of the fact that you share a child because of like, whatever the deal is, you will notoriously have to stay connected to them in some way. So it doesn't mean that you blow sunshine around, it means genuinely, when you can do those things, they won't be trusted for many moments, obviously. Or not, obviously, but that you know, understandably, maybe, but it is your biggest superpower, to be very clear about staying regulated as often as you can. And to give that empathy, that approach right back. It is I can't tell you how often I am amazed at how often we don't use that power, how often we feel so defended and, and, and angry, you mad is sads bodyguard, you see. And when you turn mad to sad for somebody, that is where healing happens, that is where you know, we have the ability and to to them. And it doesn't mean that, you know, everybody gets this in that you have to just be all loving and ship none of that. But it's about don't ever underestimate that even in this moment. If you share a relationship with anybody, regardless of whether you know, you're divorced, or you've long been separated, you have a story together that will still always hold some form of power. And when you use that for good, when you can genuinely be in a place to notice the things that are going well or doing right. You will be better for it. And I think that's my wish for so many people who have you know, currently navigating such very vitriol angry, time consuming, financially draining emotionally exhausting things in this world, there's we have zero space as it is, let alone 80% of your thoughts taken up by I should have I could have you fucker, you know all of these kinds of things, right? Like, you feel those emotions? Yes, you do, you have bigger motions, and you put those somewhere. And then you figure out what you do with them. Because otherwise you are caught in a prison that you don't deserve to stay in.
Deena Kordt 38:31
A piece of advice that you mentioned in your writing, and, and you speak of is if you are in one of those spaces where you don't even know what to do. Stop and consider how much you matter in this moment. And that I needed to hear that. And when I was reading it, I needed to hear that it was like, Oh, I do matter. I do matter too many and and often. We feel like we don't like you know, Oh totally who you know who who am I? What? Where am I? Where do I fit? I struggled with that. Coming out of 30 some years and my children were adults at that point and who am I now? And who even needs me? And pardon me and you know where do we go from here and in a lot of people feel like they've failed their family or their children or you know what, wherever they are, and under percent don't feel like they matter and that they're there alone and they've just fucked everything up royally.
Dr. Jody Carrington 39:48
Totally, totally. And I think there's always this idea to like I never wanted this I never wanted this for my children. I never wanted this for my relationships. That's so true. Nobody gets into a marriage and you know deciding to be pet Parents are, you know, become parents and be like, You know what, I'm gonna fuck this up. That's what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna do my very best to get that blow this family system up, I hope we never fucking talk again, like, people don't start out that way. Right. And and I think that there's just so much grace for understanding that people grow apart differently people have different skills that people, you know, you end up understanding things about each other that you didn't know at one point in your life and that you got yourselves into a dance that you just couldn't get out of. And I think that somehow, some way in those moments, when we have enough grace for ourselves is easier than to show our faces in the sun again, it's easier to answer this question, right? Why are my kids lucky to have me? Why? You know, is this world lucky to have me and so many times in the in the depths depths of it were like, they're not buck, they should have had a different mom, or I've disappointed my parents or, you know, my bridesmaids, my, like, whatever the fucking deal is, right? Like this was all alive, man. I know. It's not true. There's so much to this, that I wish we just knew there's goodness in all people. I believe that to be true. And it's our inability to sort of navigate those emotions and repair. John Gottman is one of the most prolific marital researchers on the planet. And he said, Listen, what becomes necessary in the healthiest relationships amongst us is our ability to repair and how we navigate that's a two way street, you see how we navigate a repair means that somebody else has to be receptive to that. And so we can try and try and try and often when we get into the dance, we keep trying the same way. And and so what we need then is somebody who just sort of shift those steps a little bit. And sometimes it's a therapist, sometimes that's a best friend, sometimes that's a whatever perspective on how do we navigate this repair so that it can be heard and received? And how do we give it to the you know, like that back and forth? And, and sometimes when that doesn't happen in the context of relationship, for whatever reason, it can happen in the context of a divorce? How do we now learn to communicate with each other? And if it's through a third party, then it's sometimes through a third party, but how do we do that in a way that still communicates and navigates that that part of things. And it's it's I mean, it's a lifelong battle, this relationship thing that I think is, I mean, it's written about, it's wrote about it's painted about it is love, and the things that smash it apart, has always been the, the quest to try to figure out, right, and that we're in the throes of this is not surprising this, this is supposed to be fucking hard. And for those of us who navigate it, and survive it, and navigate it, and survive, and I mean, it's heroic in and of itself, and I hope that, you know, the people who you are gathering in this community, just hear that and feel that so much. You know, as I watched my mom go through this, and my dad, even you know, I mean, Chris, they've been married for divorce for 30 years, or whatever. And still, the pain of these conversations is they're sort of nearing the last chapters of their lives, sort of reflecting on what that meant to them. And so many things. I was like, You fuck it, you felt that? Like, I had no idea or you regretted that? Oh, okay. You know, it's not just a single moment, and there's so many, there's so much more there often than is communicated.
Deena Kordt 43:30
I think we learn a lot about ourselves too, if we will allow that if we allow that space and explore where we fit in, who we matter to, I love how you said that, you know, how am I important in this world are important in this family? Where do I fit? And why am I needed unnecessary? Now, somebody that comes to mind, and we spoke about this briefly before we started recording, the teachers, those that you are, you have such a great heart for our the teachers and what they see and how they're supporting families through these difficult times. And, you know, they spend so much time with the our children. How can we be? How can we support what they're doing? And, you know, is it that communication, that bravery to just say, you know, this is going on in our family? What are you seeing? You know, they think a lot of you just like you the example you gave with the coach is just to be more open and help them and you know, ask if, if there's something that they're seeing that we could could support our children in?
Dr. Jody Carrington 44:50
Yeah, I think what's really critical about the education system is that it is often and including our colleagues as well, right? The people who spend the most time with their kids every Single Day more waking hours a day than their primary caregivers do in the rest of the school week are their teachers. And we spend more time at work than we spend at home. And so as you're navigating this, I want you to consider two things, right pulling in the resources at school. And people are so worried about, you know, I don't want them to know, or I'm scared that it did it. Like, again, all of those things I get. But you need to create a village in this moment. And you're actually asking nothing of educators in so many moments, you are giving them information that they need to know about your baby. And I think it is the situation that you can give as little or as none, no detail as you want. But just I just need you to know, you know that Ash is going to, there's a big change in our family system. And I'd love you to be the eyes on if there's anything I need to know, please let me know, I'm doing my very best to navigate, you know, all four of our babies or to have our babies or whatever. And I don't think I'm always getting it right. So I just wanted you to know, if there's anything I need to know, I, you know, I'd love that communications open. Okay, so they know that also being clear about you know, whether it is available that they can connect to dad or to other primary caregiver or you know, the other mom or whatever that the story is, then being able to sort of navigate that to is often really helpful, not setting up that teacher to be sort of the the middle person is really critically important. Knowing custody issues becomes really critical, you know, letting a school know about custody issues, I think is also often obviously a safety issue. But I think sometimes really important. And I would also you know, I think about your work, and I think about, you know, oftentimes we're very open other times, it's very closed off, just be really, I think conscious of like the one person you can trust, who sort of knows that there needs maybe some grace in this season. And then we often overlook sport coaches for our kids. But I think it's also really critically important that if there's some shit going on that, you know, there is that sense of like, okay, we got you. Let's figure this out. Right. And I mean, I've coached minor hockey my whole life. And I love that conversation just briefly about listen, I was Dad and I are going through a bit of a rough patch here. She's spending too, you know, so he'll he'll bring the jerseys every other day, but he might forget, and, you know, or, you know, Mom's really pissed at me, so we cannot be in the same dressing room. Okay, no problem. I'm gonna do my very best to make that happen. Like, I'm thank you so much for telling me. And then I have more empathy for Isla, who cries because her skates are too tight or can't get her fucking water bottle filled up again or whatever, right? So context is a prerequisite for empathy, also, for the people walking you through this season, at work, or at school or on your sports teams. And so I think that, you know, don't as as respectfully as you're able to share that information. I think, man, you can't do this alone.
Deena Kordt 47:58
Well, it helps the child because they aren't going to want to communicate what they're seeing and feeling and hearing. Right, nor is it their responsibility, not their responsibility. No. And I think that's such an important piece of advice and information that you've shared. communication, conflict resolution, those go hand in hand. And you've given us some very good tips for how we can create those spaces for people. And I think one of the biggest things that resonated with me today was reminding us of the reaching in where it I want to touch a bit more and go back because one of the important things I think you mentioned in that part of the conversation was the man and how can we support them because many of their friends and their support systems, their village, the ones that are struggling the most with their mental health and the highest rates of suicide? How can we communicate to probably their male friends that also struggle with those emotional language? Pieces? How can we reach them? And
Dr. Jody Carrington 49:10
I think it's just a matter of doing it right. And I think navigating to the best of our abilities, you know, the the players that are sometimes it becomes really difficult to, to do that as the ex partner but I think you know, as the sister of, you know, somebody or as the best friend of somebody, you know, don't be scared as the parent of somebody to be like, uh, you know, I really want to make sure you know, I just needed you to know that we're just going through some hard things right now or that you know, Kurt's going through these things can we don't be scared to give him a call? Right. And, and I think sometimes we don't want to overstep or we don't want to, you know, embarrass anybody and you know, so as respectfully as we can about that, but but don't be scared to do it. Because I'd much rather be in this place of oh, shoot, I didn't mean to offend. Then, fuck it. I'm like, I don't want to piss anybody off, you know? Because I think that we do that more often than then we sort of can risk the potential of overstepping. And we're just so lonely in this season. There's an epidemic of loneliness. I mean, identified, you know, in the data that's so remarkably clear. So here's full permission, right? to step in and to do the very best to sort of orchestrate the reconnections of relationship because we need it.
Deena Kordt 50:26
I learned recently in a course on critical incident stress management, that suicidal conversations those, those conversations that people are really hesitant to have. Asking someone, have you considered harming yourself? Have you had suicidal thoughts? You're not going to suggest you aren't going to point them in that direction? Would you agree that those like, actually, if you are concerned is to use those exact words and just point blank, ask somebody, you're not going to give them ideas?
Dr. Jody Carrington 51:04
No, I 100%. It is about like, Are you safe? Have you considered hurting yourself or somebody else? asking those questions directly, are really critical? Because a lot of times people say, you know, I just I'm done. I feel like I want to check out being able to say what do you mean by that? Tell me exactly what you mean by that. And does that mean that you want to hurt yourself? Does that mean that you're thinking about ending your life? And being able to just ask those questions are scary? Because when you get the answer, then it's like, what the fuck do we do with it? If the answer is yes, if the answer is yes, then you know, it's scary. But it's like, Okay, then let's, I'm coming right over, or we're calling 911. Or, you know, I'm going to be there in a minute, or whatever the deal is, right? It's like, when we ask those questions, it is necessary to be honest and blunt about it, because we need to be able to name it to tame it.
Deena Kordt 51:56
I love that. Yeah, it has been an absolute pleasure to spend time with you.
Dr. Jody Carrington 52:02
And thank you so much for having me Deena. It was just great.
Deena Kordt 52:06
any parting pieces of advice? I love your next best right kind thing. And that's all we got. And be kind and take no bullshit in that order. Keep on repeat, repeat.
Dr. Jody Carrington 52:19
Yeah, yeah, I think those are the biggest things these days. And I just, I mean, like, gosh, give yourself some grace. The fact that you're tuning into a podcast and thinking about how to navigate big emotions, you know, for either yourself or the people you love, I think is, is massive in this season, because we just, we were never meant to do any of this alone. And so the people who love you are so lucky to have you.
Deena Kordt 52:40
So beautiful. Thank you for your wisdom and being real and being you. You're such a gift.
Dr. Jody Carrington 52:48
Thank you. Thank you for having me.
Deena Kordt 52:51
Hopefully you heard something today that helps you wherever you might be in life. Do you have questions or a suggestion for a topic you want to know more about? Let me know. Check the show notes for all the contact information. Follow this podcast and find us on social. Know anyone who might find this information helpful. Be a friend and share it. And hey, thank you for hanging out with me today. Keep smiling up beautiful smile. The world needs your sunshine. It means a lot that you spend this time with us and meet our experts and professionals who can help you through divorce or separation. Please refer to our terms of service available on our website, divorce magazine canada.com. The link is in the show notes. Our disclaimer, divorce resource groups, blog and all content, including our podcast is intended to educate and provide quality credible resource information. The contents should not be used as factual until consultation with the appropriate professionals for any guidance. Divorce magazine Canada does not constitute endorsements for nor liability for any claims made in the presenting of this information.